Structuring Chaotic Minds

Transforming Leadership Through Vulnerability: Embracing Mental Wellness and Cultural Humility

• Melissa Franklin • Season 3 • Episode 12

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Melissa Franklin:

a little bit about tonight's panel. I'm super excited about these individuals. They got a chance to meet and chat with each other a little bit but to kind of share a little bit of insight. We start first tonight with myself. I am the host, but this is more for Structure Innovations and my clients, in a way to be able to create a space where executives and leadership individuals can actually feel safe and feel justified in prioritizing their mental wellness. I was excited to be able to bring on these three experts. I start with Bernie DeSantis. I have met him through Success Champions Networking. He is the owner of Indignia Education and to me he is a business education expert but definitely has those leadership insights and I'm super excited to have him on this evening. We also have Dr Tawana Chambers. She doesn't usually put doctor in there, but I always do so she's happy with it. She's amazing. She is working now with the National Board of Certification. She is an expert in organizational leadership and she is my former superintendent. We also have Jennifer Harris here this evening. She is a design and implementation specialist. I would say she is your after-school programs guru and anything when it comes to bringing joy and happiness. This is your girl. She was also a coach of mine and helped me as my program and design implementation specialist. I am super excited to have all three of them join me to have a very important discussion tonight about mental wellness.

Melissa Franklin:

Welcome to Structuring Chaotic Minds, the podcast where we turn the chaos of everyday challenges into structured success. I'm your host, melissa, and each episode we'll explore innovative strategies, real life stories and actionable insights to help you navigate the complexities of leadership, business and personal growth. Whether you're an entrepreneur, a leader or someone striving for personal development, this podcast will give you the tools to create clarity in the chaos. Let's dive in All righty, guys.

Melissa Franklin:

So, getting started, I went ahead and asked my clients what does mental wellness mean to you? And these are some of the thoughts or things that I heard. First, and it was building resilience, thriving through challenges, work-life integration. What they meant was aligning their priorities, and then healthier team dynamics, so fostering trust and collaboration. So I'm curious from you guys, though how often do you prioritize mental wellness in your leadership roles? You can just go ahead and get that in a chat. For this first one, a would be always, b would be sometimes, c would be rarely or D would be never. So I'm thinking about that. I'm going to start with Jennifer, because she was closest to watching me and she knows probably what my answer would be on how often I prioritize it. What are you thinking about these results that we're seeing here right now?

Jennifer Harris:

Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing when I'm looking at these results are just like yeah, it makes the most sense, like it's in terms of these pieces, like it like you have to have a intentionality around this focus and not being an afterthought and such, and so I think that's what the hardest thing is.

Jennifer Harris:

Like when I think one of the biggest things when it comes to this is like so, my husband, he's a pilot and when, when we travel and we hear like the brief, like brief, that they're like you need to put your like oxygen mask on yourself before you treat others, this is like 100%. I was like, oh yeah, whatever, like I don't have a, I don't have a baby, but in terms of this, this is 100%. Like you have to be able to treat yourself before you can lean in and supporting others on your team, and so this doesn't. This doesn't surprise me, because I think most people that are involved in this work are very much like invested in the fact that, like we want to serve others, and it's like you can't serve others until you can first serve yourselves.

Melissa Franklin:

Agreed. I'm going to pass this off to Dr Chambers, because I think we've been in that space before You've recently just gone through that so can you tell me what your thoughts were and how this kind of relates? Sure?

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

I think there's a world in which leaders especially if you are someone who cares very deeply about the team or about you know the people that they're supporting, that you, it seems like you need to prioritize everybody else, you need to prioritize the team, you need to prioritize the family, et cetera Talk all the time about you can't pour from an empty right. So if you haven't taken the time to feel yourself right, recognize where you are stronger at and where you need some additional support, it'll be a lot harder for you to engage in the way that you need to engage, especially as a people manager. And so I will say one of the things that I had to do is I had my own therapist right and in this case, right now, I have a coach, an executive coach, whom I work with regularly. I bring things right from my team to this person and I talk to this person and they help me. They help me to process my mental health around being a people manager, because oftentimes you will take on the the burdens or the struggles that that your team have, and so you know they say sometimes but truthfully, we want to get that almost always, because you may find that there's a time where you need to be on right to support someone else, but you're, but you're empty because you haven't been prioritizing what you, you, you haven't been prioritizing things that you need to to be able to be on for that person.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

So very much understand why it's so. It's sometimes a lot, but as you get to a place where you are recognizing as a leader, you do have to prioritize me so that I can prioritize my team and be able to give when they need it, because you're going to be coaching people and sometimes it means you are building capacity in them and that means modeling what that looks like so that they can see for themselves. Oh, okay, here's how you know Noel does it Great. Okay, I'm gonna fashion myself around the way that I've seen her bring this out right, but if you are not taking care of you, it's gonna be a lot harder for you to be the model that we want to be for our team I appreciate that.

Melissa Franklin:

I think I love that. You've always said that. I know, being a part of your team, that was something you always brought up to us. We had to take care of ourselves before we could take care of anybody else. You still expected excellence, but it was kind of hard not to give that excellence when you were already modeling it and it was like click proof. Everything was there. So that's beautiful. But that kind of takes me over to discussion I've had with Bernie. Recently we chatted about this and we were we've been doing time blocking. Bernie and I have been looking at what our schedules really looked like as leaders and when the discussion was real, it's still not there. It's still like let's go serve Bernie. You want to kind of chime into that?

Bernie DeSantis:

Yeah, absolutely, you know.

Bernie DeSantis:

I think that you know as, as leaders, we always want to be at our best and try to pour into other people, and we'll even prioritize other people's wellbeing and success over our own right, because if you're truly a good servant leader, that's what you're built to do, right?

Bernie DeSantis:

So it's oftentimes, as that good servant leader, difficult to stop and take a look back or look in the mirror and say what am I not doing for myself? Because I thought the phrase was very well put, dr Shawna, you can't pour from an empty cup right as a leader, if you are spending 10, 12, 14, 16 hours a day just with your team and tending to their needs, they're going to appreciate it, most likely and no doubt. But you're never going to be as good as you can for them if you're not prioritizing your own day, your own well-being, your own time, taking your lunch breaks and maybe taking a brief meditation break or, whatever the case might be right, taking a walk in the course of the day, but oftentimes it does. It gets difficult when you get caught up in fast pace of your day to day and back-to-back meetings and everybody wants a piece of your schedule and you want it to be there for them to prioritize your own wellbeing.

Melissa Franklin:

So very true. So then that takes us to our next piece and it's going to come down to breaking those barriers. I don't know about you guys, but I know for me a common stigma or common fear is really like I'm going to come off looking weak. And then it's the organizational culture avoids the conversation. So I have to share this part for myself.

Melissa Franklin:

And it was a story about a year, and it was a year and a half ago maybe now, and it was around spring, and I had a very heavy deadline. And I remember waking up, very stressed out and I couldn't see my computer screen anymore, and I remember calling Jennifer, crying and freaking out, thinking I'm going blind, like I really think I'm going blind. I don't know what's happening right now. I'm freaking out. I have a friend coming to pick me up from the hospital, uh, but this stuff is due, and I don't know. And she just told me like, stop it, like you might actually be going blind and you're still worried about what's due instead of you. And I was like, but shit, the deadline, like we still have a deadline. And she was doing that right there, like that's great and the deadline's gonna come. And oh well, I was just like they're to be so disappointed in me. Oh my God, and I kept thinking to myself too.

Melissa Franklin:

Had it been a different scenario, where the conversation had been flowing with my manager, had it had the way it had been previously, there would have already been awareness of this With Dr Chambers. It was like every day, so where are you at, so where are we at? And then when she was gone, it was like every day, so where are you at, so where are we at? And then when she was gone, it was like crickets. Well, when we get to it, we get to it. So, thinking about that, dr Chambers and I have had that conversation for myself. Why is that stigma there? Why can't we speak up about it? So, thinking about that, what prevents leaders from addressing mental health openly? I know what it means for me, but I want to hear from the audience before we start breaking in with our panelists. Is it fear of judgment, lack of time, organizational culture, lack of knowledge? Let's start this time, then, with burning. What do you notice or what do you think is the underlying thing that actually prevents leaders from addressing it openly?

Bernie DeSantis:

Yeah, we're seeing a lot of A's fear of judgment come in and I definitely feel like that is probably the lowest hanging fruit. But who was it? Aaron said all of the above and I tend to agree with you. I think that it's a combination of all of the above, and I tend to agree with you. I think that it's a combination of all of the above. Right, it's never very rarely is it just one particular thing in any given situation or issue. Right, that you're dealing with, I think to a degree.

Bernie DeSantis:

You know, everybody wants to be that subject matter expert, be that, you know, revered leader. You don't want to show weakness and be judged for it, but I think reducing the stigma around mental health and being vulnerable and sharing as a leader helps to reduce that judgment. Right, it humanizes you a little bit and it lets people know that everybody has to deal with these challenges to one degree or another. Right? I think lack of time is definitely something that I can say. I personally run into right, because I'm always on the go, always running around, and I don't ever want to say that I need to slow down in order to take care of myself, because there's always people out there that are depending on me, so that's kind of a two-step there. Right, lack of time, which also goes back to that fear of judgment or letting people down. There's always people out there that are depending on me, so that's kind of a two step there. Right, lack of time, which also goes back to that fear of judgment or letting people down.

Bernie DeSantis:

Organizational culture is a big one as well. You know particular industries especially really push hard on that. You know working from home, late nights, and you know never get to take a break, and the more tired you are, the prouder you should be of yourself and all of that stuff. I'm hopeful that that type of culture is ultimately dying out in America, because it's just truly unhealthy. And I'd also venture to say that lack of knowledge is a huge one as well, because, for the most part, unless you personally deal with mental health on a regular basis, you're unconsciously incompetent. You don't know what you don't know unless you've exposed yourself to it. So I would say that it's a strong combination of all of them.

Melissa Franklin:

Whichever one of you ladies would like to take that one.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

Yeah, I was about to say I was going to say what I wrote down was it is org cultures built by people who lack the knowledge and don't prioritize the vulnerability. It is all of those things in one an organization and developing its culture and its habits and and these pieces. Well, you can only develop a culture from the knowledge that you have, and so if you, if you don't have the, the knowledge of what it looks like to be emotionally intelligent and to have empathy and to prioritize humanity over productivity, then you won't know how to create a culture that can be sustained in those things. So I don't always think it is intentional that leaders separate these things right, separate these things right.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

But there's a very much a prevailing idea that work is work and it should be completely separate from your emotional state and your X, y and Z. Right, it's check it at the door, it's leave it at the door and essentially we have taught people to leave half of who they are or just leave their humanity at home. And I need you to bring the just, the productivity, and make that what we're focused on here. But it is that lack of recognition that we are whole and we will always come to work whole or missing parts of us. So I can never be as productive as you'd like me to be because you told me to leave half of me at home. Right, and that's the. It is. We shift that by making sure that leaders have the capacity to understand emotional intelligence and the ability to model that for teams and to be critical about the culture that we are creating within organizations, so that we're not avoiding the tough parts.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

But all of that comes with. Do you have trust? Do you have the vulnerability, the trust to be vulnerable with this person? If I don't, I'm not going to show you that. Do you value me as a whole person or do you only value me for the skill set, the hard skills that I am getting paid to? You know to do every day, but I'll say it's all of those things and not necessarily intentional in all ways. I think a lot of it's just lack of knowledge, and human beings are the ones creating these cultures, and then you know, teaching other people. Well, this is how you have to be if you want to get ahead, if you want to be a leader. You got to be X instead of choosing to. Well, I don't know this. Let me go find out, let me build my capacity and then bring it back to my organization.

Melissa Franklin:

Oh, I love that, love it. What about you, jen?

Jennifer Harris:

Oh, my like Shawana she was, like she was preaching it Like I mean, that's exactly what I would say. I mean, like everything would be like, first of all, it's human first Doesn't matter, I don't give a shit, sorry, I'm not, but I don't give a shit, sorry, I'm not, but I don't give a shit. Like what the title of what you have? You're a human first. We need to see you as a human. That's super important.

Jennifer Harris:

The second thing is modeling that you're going to be vulnerable, like you need to be a vulnerable leader. You want to create trust, just like she was saying, like absolutely. Then you need to put yourself out there, because people will model or they'll lean in to what they see. If you talk the talk and don't walk the walk, then like, that's a whole different space. So you have to be able to like, lean in and be like I'm going to talk the talk and I invite others and I'm going to be put myself in these positions and spaces, and that's like, just like, so important. Like we all are just humans. Let's just start there and we're all humans. We want to be seen, we want to be valued, we want to create spaces where we can trust one another, we want to build relationships, we actually want to do good shit. Like actually, it doesn't matter what it is like, whatever it is, we want to do good stuff, and like that's the bottom line.

Jennifer Harris:

And so, yeah, I could not agree, like I could not agree more. That like it's just about you have to lean in, to be vulnerable as a leader, because when you are, others feel more inclined to then create an emotion, like an emotionally climate where they too can lean in. Because trust is it? Like it's a simple five-letter word, but it is not a simple five-letter word, like it is so much around those investments, around what trust really means, and so you have to lean into it as a leader, and when you do others, I mean I do feel the more you make those deposits, others will follow as well sorry that I swore well, I'm glad you did, because I do too and so I was like, who's gonna?

Bernie DeSantis:

break the ice on this?

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

um, no, I think a piece that is that we haven't mentioned, but is a major part of this as a leader is recognizing how you show up in the world and and that that cultural humility that plays a role in how you build trust with the people that are on your team and how, how willing they are going to be to be vulnerable with you if you don't see the whole of who they are, if you don't recognize that.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

Hey, I show up as a black woman in my life every day, and so in the workspace, when people are talking to to me, I'm always being conscious of how I'm saying things right, because I'm a big tone police my entire life, and so I'm trying to always think about how am I going to say this thing so that people don't hear angry Black women, so they hear what I, what we need to say to you know, to get us to where we need to be, and part of that is in leadership recognizing you show up in the world and what the power dynamics look like, as we're talking about mental health, as we're talking about all of these pieces, because those are not separate, and if you are not willing, as a leader, to have the hard conversation, which is that as well. It is going to be really difficult to build the trust that you need to build with your team so that everyone can feel that vulnerability and be able to model for each other what it looks like to take care of self well as the team.

Melissa Franklin:

No, that's perfect. I appreciate that, because that's going to get us into our next piece is I'm going to ask each of you and whichever one of you want to come off mute first. But I'm going to ask each of you and whichever one of you want to come off mute first, but I'm going to invite each of you to really think about your unique perspectives on leadership and mental wellness. But, really, what does it take to get that going then? So we're talking about all the whys, we're talking about all the things that we need to model and those types of things, but what would it take from that leader? Because for me, it's replicating, sure, but it's going to take straight up the courage to be vulnerable. That's going to be the first thing, like the real courage to be vulnerable and the courage to shit. They might not think I'm amazing. They might be like what the hell, before they even embrace that. That's the one for me. So I'm curious to hear from you guys what would it take to actually embrace mental wellness and leadership?

Jennifer Harris:

I want to jump in first, just because I think a couple of things that I would just say on my end is that there's a huge self-awareness as a leader just to know that, like you don't need to have all the answers. You are human, like everyone else, you're living the life like anyone else. Into that as a leader, and like acknowledge that I've always thought like the teams felt much more confident in being able to create safe spaces with them. I think the other thing is when it comes to just trust, like trust is the foundation of what like any individual relationship or culture that you're trying to create within your organization, and everything that you do is either deposited into a bank of trust or withdrawing from a bank of trust. So, whether it's one-on-one time, staff meeting time, I would encourage people like not be so like hyper focused on every second of the day, but like every moment that you have with somebody is about am I creating an opportunity to build trust or withdraw trust? And I mean, let's be clear, like if, like an economic standpoint, like the more that we build trust, the gains on that are great, and it can take one big thing of mistrust that can take a big withdrawal from your account and then you're starting from scratch. So, like I am.

Jennifer Harris:

So about what is that you do in the moment? And it's not the big moments, it's the little moments as a leader that you are really connecting with people to build trust, seeing who they are, acknowledging what they need, not multitasking in your communications with them, like just seeing who they are as humans. When you do that, it's a value for everybody, not multitasking in your communications with them, like just seeing who they are as humans. When you do that, it's a value for everybody and at the same time, it just builds, like collateral in your bank account around trust. And so when things become, there will be times that things will become part of an organization that are kind of that might be kind of sketchy or such. When you have a good deposit in your bank account, people might see things a little bit differently or such, but it's an investment that you have to be able to make and that's the most important part.

Melissa Franklin:

I love that. What about you, Bernie?

Bernie DeSantis:

You know I think we've touched on it a few times you know, leading by example is going to be the strongest way that, ultimately, you can foster that type of culture. You know, I've had a lot of experience, obviously, sharing my personal experiences and stories with people as it pertains to, you know, losing my best friend to suicide 20 years ago, sharing my story has a allowed me to heal personally, but I feel it's also given people an opportunity to connect with me in ways that they wouldn't have otherwise. Right, and it's it's humanized me. It's made me that much more approachable, because there are a lot of people who have gone through similar things. Also, when you're talking about leading by example and again we touched on this a little bit is just modeling those healthy behaviors right? You know you and I talked about this taking breaks, setting boundaries, spending time with the people that are important to us.

Noelle:

And.

Bernie DeSantis:

I think another thing that's really interesting that we don't see a lot of is leaders actually utilizing the mental health resources that are available within their organization. Right, it kind of goes back to that judgment piece, but if you, as a leader, are utilizing the very resources that you're trying to make available to your teams and the people within your organization, it shows that you have trust in those tools that you're making available to them. And I feel like I'm going to start stepping on Dr Shea's toes a little bit here, but I think it's. You know, ultimately it's educating people, right. It's taking the time to offer those workshops. You know, talk about mental health awareness and literacy, both from the leadership perspective as well as the employee perspective. You know what does it mean? How do we recognize it within our coworkers? How do we support each other when we notice those things are happening? Those are the two biggest things that I would say is leading by example as a leader and then providing the education and the resources to your people.

Melissa Franklin:

Okay, so don't hate me, Dr Spurston, but Jennifer just spit fire and then so did Bernie. And then, listening to what they said, you've been a superintendent of an organization that started from like small to large and then you're now helping educators across the entire nation do epic things. Thinking of that and all the setbacks you've had, how did you finally push back on the stigma and make sure that you actually could bernie just said it make sure that people were utilizing the resources that they had and it not get thrown back in your face like I don't know the comments, like sometimes you don't look that tired or you look like you're handling it okay or like well, are you sure, because you're always killing it, like what about you? That's a good good question.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

So I I wrote down right like modeling healthy behaviors. That was one of the things I was doing some research on. Like, oh, how can I talk about? I think in my I spent a great deal of my career not prioritizing my mental health. It was about trying to prove that I was smart enough to be where I was. It is why I have so many certifications, it is why I have so many letters, I have so many degrees, all of the things Because it was about proving that I knew what I was talking about and I went to school to do the thing right and I can do the actual work, I can do the strategic stuff and I can do the day-to-day whatever you need to have done.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

So it wasn't until I started therapy. I was already in an executive role and started therapy, therapy I was already in an executive role and started therapy and was like trying to think through okay, why do I do these things? Why am I spending? Why am I working 70 hours a week, right? Why am I always going, never taking vacations, never doing the thing? And I think I got I just got to a point where it was not. I was not ashamed of going to therapy, and so I would be in our executive meetings talking not, I was not ashamed of going to therapy and so I would be in our executive meetings talking about yeah, I was talking about therapists. I and you know it was kind of like, oh, she's talking about a therapist, but I just did it regularly. It became part of my conversation when I was in my check-ins with my teammates, my, the people that I'm responsible for. I'm like, yeah, my therapist and I were talking about this thing that I was struggling with, and that was part of the authenticity of building the trust. Like I wasn't doing it intentionally, like I'm going to get this person to trust me, but I was modeling like this is an area of struggle for me.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

Professionism is really difficult for me, and it is why it takes me so long to get X, y and Z done. So here's what I have sought out support from a professional to work on that, and so when I would talk to my team and I would see something in them, they're like I can see it in them, because it's a thing I used to do. Then I can say you know what I was struggling with that too. Here's what my therapist did for me going with that too. Here's what my therapist um did for me. Let's try this, I want you to try this thing, and when we meet for our check-in next week, we're going to talk about right and so, like in my, in my professional one-on-one, you know check-ins with my team, I started talking about cognitive distortions, right either, or all kinds of things right, and teaching and teaching them to Bernie's point like educate, using that language in my professional setting, so that they could, like, go Google it. And they're like oh, hey, we're talking about this thing over here, okay, and so when I moved to the national boards, I worked for the national board for the professional teaching standards, and they have done an incredible job of building a culture.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

That is not work, right. And so I told my team, like, hey, every Wednesday morning, every other Wednesday, I have therapy from nine to 10. It is blocked on my calendar. I can't do check-ins, right, I will never miss that session, right? So that then allowed my team to be like hey, shay, my therapy is on Thursday at two. Can we not do team meetings at that time? No problem, right, like. But it was part of the like hey, here's what I'm doing, this is my thing because I have struggled with professors, I have struggled with this and this and this, and here is how I set the boundary for myself to be able to not fall back into. And I tell them like hey, I have a team and I'm going to stop talking because I think it's a little rude.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

And when I started this new team I had a system mechanism. I'm like here's what our team is going to do, so I don't care what other teams do, but on this team we don't email after 5. On this team, we don't email after five. On this team, we don't email before seven. On this team, we do some type of hey, how are you feeling? Checking question at every in every check-in. So everybody's one-on-one. There is a oh, how are you entering this space? To the that, and we have like unlimited pto.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

So like to the point where I have told my senior manager, like you're logging off right now, all right, and I'll see you tomorrow. You're done for for the day I had a woman text me to tell me like hey, my grandmother took a really bad fall, broke someone's. You're out for the rest of the week. Go ahead and log off. I'm going to let everybody else know and we're done, but there is not a hey.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

Is it okay, shay, if I no, it is my job as their manager to protect them when they cannot protect themselves. It is to push them to a place where they can recognize I actually do need to prioritize me, but it came from just making it part of the way that I manage people, the way that I coach people. As opposed to asking for permission, I don't. I'd rather ask for forgiveness and I'd rather HR call me in and be like hey, shay, you can't do that. Guess what? Ain't nobody called me in? Ain't nobody said, shay, you can't do that. Because it's about I just have to do what is necessary for my team, because I know what their struggles are and they've seen me develop over time into like, oh, that's why Shay does this, so I'm going to do that. That's how I I hope that answers your question like how I got to a place of. It's just part of who I am.

Melissa Franklin:

Jennifer's always said that. Well, that's my forgiveness later.

Jennifer Harris:

Let's just get the shit done no offense, like I'm gonna apply for whatever position Shay has. Be part of that culture. That's the group I want to be a part of, you just said you didn't want to take on any more jobs.

Bernie DeSantis:

It's a real good culture, y'all, it's a real good culture.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

We're getting ready to do three weeks off for hibernation or for the winter, like I said, unlimited PTA.

Jennifer Harris:

It's wonderful, it's a privilege to be part of the space that you're creating, and that is, I mean, like yeah, oh my god, that is just like.

Melissa Franklin:

So, it's just so so to frame it for everybody in this room after I left and I thought I wasn't going to work again, I went back to work for this amazing woman, but I was very transparent with her and told her like, kind of like still seem a therapist, like I'm not all there yet, like I don't know if I can be there in person. Loud noises I still can't handle it. The building I'm going to have a panic attack. It's just not going to work. That's nice.

Melissa Franklin:

I'm hiring you to do these things x, y, z. I want this done and it's very transparent, very like. This is what I expect. This is what's needed now. Of course, you need to be there for these things, like show up, be there and always modeling it. And then she left and then it was gone. The trauma I'm shifting the trauma of having such an amazing manager and leader and then someone who met well but just wasn't as aware what that does to you. So, thinking about that for all of you, what tools and practices could you recommend to leaders to actually promote team mental health in a positive way?

Bernie DeSantis:

You know that's a really good question and also I think that Noelle kind of started to touch on that a little bit in the chat as well with her question. You know it's the culture of the organization that you work for definitely has a significant impact in the things that you are typically able to do right. You know, not every organization is just going to allow the frontline leaders to do as they please and prioritize everything aside from generating revenue. Right. But I think, as leaders and creating the culture within your team, there are certainly things that you can do right, having that real open door policy, creating safe spaces for your team members to come and have conversations with you and not just asking them, hey, how are you doing? But really asking hey, you know, how are you really doing in this? I can see that something's going on. Let's have a conversation about it and truly be there to listen and support. You know, I think those are the things that, no matter what type of organization you're in or at what level you're in in that organization, that you can choose to do as that leader.

Bernie DeSantis:

But then there are a lot more progressive organizations out there and they're becoming more and more because, quite frankly, the generation that's coming into the workforce is demanding it. They're not going to continue to work for the dictator style organizations anymore. They will quite literally leave and shut you down. But it's prioritizing the people. You know, we I think Jennifer, you said it earlier right, just making sure that everybody understands when they walk through the doors, they're still a human, they're not a number, they're not a robot, they're not just an ass in the seat trying to, you know, punch out the next widget. Yes, making widgets is what we do, but it's being done by humans, and remembering that is is, I think, the first step to creating the right culture in an organization, even if it's not the general culture of the entire organization. You can do that for your team.

Melissa Franklin:

That brings us to our next question how can organizations create cultures of openness and trust around mental health? I think that kind of piggybacks off of what Nalela was saying on what if you work in an environment where the provide to others attitude is not supported not supported.

Jennifer Harris:

I mean, this seems like. I mean, I think like when I look at this and correct me if I'm wrong the provide for others attitude is not supported. Is this like a servant leadership, Like we're all like, completely 100% servant leadership?

Noelle:

If I may jump in, my thought is that you know, I've worked in a lot of different corporate environments before and I am 100% a servant leader.

Noelle:

I know that my role as a leader is first to provide for others.

Noelle:

That is what I do before anything else.

Noelle:

To provide for others that is what I do before anything else.

Noelle:

I've worked for corporate environments where they don't necessarily feel that that's the case.

Noelle:

So, even though my style of leadership is to provide for my team, in that role, to give to them that I am there to provide for them, to develop them, to help them to grow, to help them to succeed, the larger organization is more about the numbers, or the productivity, or the efficiency, or the XYZ revenue that we're going to present, where I know that if you invest in the people, then the numbers and the money will come.

Noelle:

But you know, I know that, as a leader, if I provide for my people, then the export of that will come along. That's not always the case in a corporate environment. They don't always see that the people, investment comes first and then the revenue comes after. So if, as a servant leader, I know that this is my style of leadership and this is what I'm going to provide to my people, but the larger organization doesn't necessarily feel that way. Feel that way, how do you kind of marry the two in order to still uphold your integrity and your core values of who you are as a leader and still provide for the organization that you're?

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

working for? That's a wonderful question. It is actually something that I just I was on LinkedIn the other day thinking about, you know, compromising your, your, your principles, and what that does. You know that being self-betrayal, and so what? I?

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

I've not always worked for an org that was as invested in people that you know as I work for now, and so in those instances, when I was in a place where there wasn't as much investment in the people first, I, as a team leader right Like, my job was to know as much about the policies and procedures and rules as possible so that I could, if I needed to do X. I knew how to make a case for what I was getting ready to do Right, and it's part of the like, actual forgiveness type of thing. But I knew that handbook, right Like. I knew exactly what I had at my disposal to be able to care for my, you know, for my team. I think there's and I'm always thinking about these things in a how can I impact an organization? Right, so I would. If I know that people first is how I get my team to the productivity level that they need to be at. Well, I'm gonna make a case for that. I'm gonna create a hey, I'm gonna do this for six weeks, and if the revenue's not where it needs to be or if the so-and-so is not where it needs to be, then I'll do it your way. But I want to make a case that if I care for my team and if I invest in them in these ways, I am going to outperform, whatever the metric is that you intend for me, and I think that has been a way for me to do what I needed to do right, because my team is always performing right, like my team is always doing exceptionally what they need to do, and it is because I trust the people that I hired to do the job that I hired them to do, and I recognize who they are as people and, in that same way, try to encourage the organization to rethink about the culture.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

Here are the results that I was able to produce with this culture. How can we make that something for the whole organization right, or for everybody? Because I've been able to produce X, y and Z, and so I think having data really helps with that. You can say, hey, my team did X and I allowed them to work from home once a week, you know, or whatever it is right.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

I think it can help with some of that, but you are having to work within the confines of the system that you're in and if you get to a point where it is not aligned with your core value, then the hard thing is going to be. It's time for you to go and recognize that, as much as it hurts to leave the team, you have to be aligned to your core value. I hated I've always hated leaving a team, but I have to be where I am aligned with my principles. Otherwise, I am continuously betraying myself and I am not going to be my best self and not prioritizing my mental health when I am at odds with who I am as a person oh my gosh, I know right.

Jennifer Harris:

I was just like, like, like I could not agree more with that on every single level. Like, what is your North star? What are you following? What does that look like? Oh my God, I mean. Yes, that is exactly what this work is about. It's about, like, aligning your, your passion and your values to the work that you're doing, and when that doesn't like, when that doesn't align like, it makes it hard to show up every single day well, I mean, I think it sounds like you guys have already chosen the theme for the Q&A but, I just kind of want to check.

Melissa Franklin:

Check it. Chae, can you put poll three Technically, which topic are you guys most interested in? I mean, I kind of already hearing it, but A practicing personal wellness, supporting team wellness. C breaking stigmas in leadership. Or D cultivating organizational change. And then, based off of that, panelists. I'll let you guys take in the last five to six minutes before we wrap up with key insights and take it away. Shay's going to find a way to like wrap it all up and say like we break the stigmas by going. Bernie, we haven't heard from you in a little bit. Why don't you take this one off first and tell me which topic you're thinking or what you kind of?

Bernie DeSantis:

Well, let's see. You know, I think that B seems to have the most answers there, so I think we'll kind of start there. And supporting team wellness. You know, obviously I touched on a couple of things earlier creating safe spaces and modeling behaviors. Obviously, I touched on a couple of things earlier creating safe spaces and modeling behaviors, I think.

Bernie DeSantis:

You know, organizationally speaking, obviously, the more resources that can be provided and made available for people to be able to leverage and for leaders to be able to talk about, better I think you've got to normalize having those conversations with people so that they feel more comfortable and confident with you as a leader, both to have that conversation, but also that you're going to keep it confidential, right, because there's nothing worse than confiding in someone and then having them share what would be your dirty laundry out with everyone, right?

Bernie DeSantis:

That is not going to create a safe environment. Or, as Jennifer was saying earlier, right, create that trust that you need to have within your team and your organization earlier. Right, create that trust that you need to have within your team and your organization. But I think that there's also a case to be made for, as Dr Shea was trying to say really eloquently, making a case for return on investment for investing in the people right. There is ways to show additional, increased productivity as a result of being that servant leader and coaching and mentoring and doing all of the things to support your people. I think it's super important to model those behaviors, have those conversations, create those safe spaces and to be able to show the metrics behind what you're doing, because there's not a CEO or CFO or COO out there where, if you can show them return on investment because of the behaviors that you are putting in place, they won't fight those changes.

Melissa Franklin:

I love that Stephanie kind of put in the chat right now that her organization does what Dr Chambers recommended with the two by twos and that sort, but that sometimes it's not really done with intentionality. What would you recommend to somebody, then, guys, who is not quite the person at the very top of the organization but still leading and not necessarily able to take this sort of feedback because it's not done with consistency across the board?

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

I think, depending on where you are in the org chart right around that. So one of the things that I sometimes will do is, you know, go to someone or my manager or whomever, and ask like, hey, for this particular expectation, what are we trying to solve? What problem are we trying to solve? And trying to get to the root of why do we want to do two by twos? We do them every month. Why do we want to do two by twos every month? What is the purpose? What does it serve? And getting them to tell me this is why we do X.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

Okay, we think that monthly is the right cadence, because right now, or we don't really or this is me talking right we don't really do it monthly, but maybe sometimes it's happening every once in a while. So we need to potentially rethink about when we expect this to happen, because I want to make sure that I'm aligned with the organization around two by two, or you know, whatever this thing is, stephanie. And so like that's, that's what I, that's how I would present that. It's like if you recognize that this is the thing that your org cares about, but we're not really doing it with fidelity.

Dr. Chawanna Chambers:

It is asking questions that prompt leadership to think about. Oh well, maybe we do need to rethink this. Maybe two by two should be quarterly, maybe it should be every other month, but or this is not something we want to do. But I think you all bringing it to them and saying like, hey, can you help us understand, help me understand why? And even trigger for them Like Ooh, we need to be doing this a little bit better. How can we recenter on this thing?

Melissa Franklin:

I feel like if you were literally just giving a sales presentation, you would be taking this through NAPQ and like how you would be using the client or the audience's emotions to answer their own questions and literally coach themselves to what they need to do. And that's cool so you can put your own morals, principles, thoughts into it, but then actually be able to ask those questions of curiosity on like, hmm well, I wonder how could we actually make that happen, or is this actually necessary? Jennifer's really good about when she doesn't like something she doesn't.

Jennifer Harris:

I wonder, how that would look, just a mirror, just a mirror back to you, and I'm going to ask you to like do that? I mean, I mean it is one of those things. I mean it's like a perfect thing, like there's so much work to be done in reflection and you just giving people the time to reflect and asking them prompt questions that are like asking them to reflect about their practice, and there's no judgment. It's just like here's the mirror, what did you see? I'm here to tell you what you saw. It's the mirror, what did you see? And so, yeah, I mean like, yeah, there's a lot that lot that goes into leadership and team development and such in this space. And yeah, I mean, we're all humans. We're just trying to like, trying to figure it all out, and my biggest thing will always just be like, just see humans first and like if you see humans first, then everything else can kind of flow from there.

Melissa Franklin:

So I love it. Well for me. I'm going to wrap up for everybody and saying that mental wellness is a strength that develops as that skill gets better with time, because it's not something that we have from the very beginning. About breaking those stigmas, but fostering openness and being vulnerable enough to model it so that everybody else around you can thrive. Any other tips, guys, before we?

Jennifer Harris:

wrap this up, I know I think the only thing is like to be as a leader, to be the more vulnerable that you can be creates a atmosphere for others to contribute to that vulnerability and creating an emotional climate where others can succeed as well. So don't be, afraid to lean in.

Melissa Franklin:

I'll add, in the way you said, pouring into that bank account, kind of the way Shay's saying here, checking in with your teammates just a minute. I think that's something, honestly, even you three have still replicated, like with me, and that's why I've invited you into this space. Like all of you are super busy and it's still just like hi, melissa, how are you for like five minutes somewhere within a month or something, and you're still making time for it and that matters. So I appreciate that from you guys. Thank you so much for helping me prioritize my mental wellness through my leadership journey and thank you everybody for joining us this evening.

Melissa Franklin:

I hope it was beneficial for y'all and it created a safe space with some tips that were actually able to be applied somewhere. I hope to see this actually here and that you guys are telling us that, yes, I actually was able to do some of those things. Noelle, I would love to hear that from Bernie saying like, hey, she said that the steps are working and such. I don't know, dr Chambers, it'd be great to be like hey, she said that the steps are working and such, I don't know, dr Chambers, it'd be great to be like I actually went and applied it or I don't know, something like that.

Jennifer Harris:

Yeah, we need to have an aftermath conversation.

Melissa Franklin:

Yes, we'll have to figure out around this. Thank you, guys, so much for joining us. Y'all have an amazing evening. We'll see you next time. Thank you for tuning in to Structuring Chaotic Mind minds. If today's episode resonated with you, don't forget to subscribe, share and leave a review. Remember the key to success is not avoiding chaos, but learning how to structure it. Stay inspired, keep growing and join me next time as we continue to transform challenges into opportunities. Until then, take care and keep structuring your chaotic mind.

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